difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve

We suggest dumping the old refrigerant oil in a clean container and inspect the oil for sludge or waxing (old oil that has gelled) and contamination (metal particles). However, the supply houses don't indicate a difference. Also called the orifice tube. At this time you can still find R12, but, because it is no longer produced, availability is limited to current inventories and the price per pound is greater than R134a. There are other refrigerants: some of which may work, some of which dont work, some of which will destroy your a/c system and some of which are dangerous. If he is not in the garage fixing challenging mechanical problems, he is writing automotive repair guides, buyers guides, and car and tools comparisons. R12 was once used in many air conditioning units as a refrigerant or cooling agent. Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site. I just got some hi/lo side gauges so I'm going to take readings, if they are needed. I don't have the FSM matrix handy for that 123.123, but a 123.133 shows a test rpm of 2,000 - and vent temps between 54f & 66f at 91f to 95f ambient. R134a has a smaller molecule than R12 so R134a will leak out sooner than R12. It may take a couple of tries to get things really clean.The laser is usually close on clean surfaces, but I prefer a T/C. Make sure visiually that no large gaps exist that would allow the air to bypass the condensor on the way to the radiator.B. 30 deg is pretty coldSystems generally run between 40 and 43 deg. The mechanical fan & clutch should be checked as well. I am ordering new parts, and planning to convert my system to R-134a. There is NO reason to retrofit a vehicle to R-134a as long as the R-12 system is cooling properly and contains a normal charge of refrigerant. It will work and there will be very little, in any difference in performance.As Chick stated, the difference is only the gas used in the sensor tube. . They can be mounted quite easy,and there is a mounting kit that helps to hang it. So if you car has a large amount of rubber hose, such as a 40 feet with the 911, then you will be re-charging the system often and that is expensive no matter which refrigerant you use. So I probably put the highest suggested amount in to be safe. The smoking question & vent airflow indicate that the evaporator is fairly clean - and you are aware of the importance of that.The heater valve stops the flow, but there is always some conduction heating. You do not need to replace the expansion valve in most cases. R-134a is widely believed to be the most acceptable R12 substitute. The crossover point is approximately at 64F. The AC usually does not work at all. As for R134a and R1234yf, theres no room for conversion. The compressors used by refrigeration plants to compress gas require oil to help lubricate its moving parts. Consider using the newer valve, even with 134a stamped on the valve. In practice this means that the car can overheat and the aux fan will stay off! I have some experience with auto a/c but not too much. In most cases, the systems used have varied components, designs, and service ports. -------------------------Just another brick in the wallHad a little mule I fed him castor oil and every time he jumped the fence he fertilized the soil, The older expansion valves were filled with the refrigerant they were used with, the replacement valves (today) are filled with a different chemical to work with both refrigerants..Hope this helps-------------------------ChickEmail: Chick---------------------------------------------Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose, I believe the optimum supercool setting will vary slightly between an expansion valve for an R12, as compared to R134a, system. R404a for freezing of product. Some compressor manufacturers or OEMs suggest PAG type oil for R134a. I've straightened the fans I can and sprayed simple green on it, let it soak then hosed it down well. Reattach the hose lines using new R134a compatible o-rings, lightly lubricate with compressor oil. For instance at 25 F the pressure of R-12 is 24.6 PSI and the pressure of R-134a is 22.1 PSI. The original expansion valves work very well with R134a. You may need to adjust the valve in a bit to get desired superheat. This can be very very expensive. we convert older systems where i work all the time and they work fine. By after changing just about everything, he got what was termed, satisfactory cooling. You do not need to replace every o-ring in the system, but if you happen to open a connection that has an o-ring you should replace the old o-ring with one that is compatible with R134a and lubricate the o-ring with ac oil. We consider the the various types alternative refrigerants that are illegal or not approved to be in two sectors: non-flammables and flammables. You can use the R134a retrofit capacity chart for this purpose. Note that passwords are case-sensitive. R134a compressors are substituted as new to retrofit the R12 system compressor part numbers with different height sealing washers. Once you have replaced the OEM condensor with a PF unit, you will need to make custom hoses to mate with your OEM system. Superheat you can consider to be the additional amount of heat. What is a good differential? Rules governing changing from the former to the latter differ between countries. Then I'll put the ball valve in on the coolant and test it and see what we have. It is common for eurocar threads to go multiple pages, and as Nick points out - sometimes cool is all you will ever get. Comparatively, larger R134a molecules should take more space, and a smaller amount might be required. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. Is there more info needed?THanks -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Paul:I had to dig a bit deeper - MB made several running changes in the 1983 123'sThere are actually 4 different circuit diagrams for the A/C system that year - just for your 123.123 I found the R4 reference, and it should have 170 Ml of oil in the system.Your aux fan should run at the ambients you listed. Therefore, the R12 refrigerant is illegal, and emitting it is illegal. Nice to use new gadgets! _____ 2012 E350 2006 Callaway SC560 . There is only a temperature switch on these cars as far as I recall, and it just switches on the aux fan. Took me a while to figure that one out, and how to say that. R134a is otherwise called 1,1,1,2 Tetrafluoroethane, Florasol 134a, Freon 134a, Norflurane (INN) or HFC 134a. Compressor. The bad thing is I don't know what to do about it. These cheap kits usually have a few cans of R134a (either 12 ounce or 16 ounce), maybe an extra can of refrigerant oil, a few generic R134a charge port adapters and maybe some o-rings. Even though their common major function is to cool the system, they have many differences. Still, I have some simple green, so may as well give it a go. I'm curiousSo there is work to do, ie performance should be able to be improved. It's best to determine on a case-by-case basis while monitoring system pressures and output air temperature. Below are the major differences between R134a and R12: Chemistry The chemical composition of R12 and R134a differ. But, if your old compressor has lock-up or if your current expansion valve is not functional it would wise to replace the expansion valve with a valve designed for R134a. It won't be optimal, though. They would then make short "jumper hoses" to connect to the existing stock hoses, refit your old fan if there is a "pusher" fan, and recharge to specs. Then, subtract that result by 0.25 pounds to get the proper amount of R134a charge. Post photos, respond to polls and access other special features. That switch should close @ 52c. Get to the point where I can walk without crutches2. GWP is a measurement of Greenhouse Gases and their effect on Global Warming. R12 and R134 are of different chemistry. If you you dont have the free time to play then you are better off to pay a technician. When you add fluorescent tracer dye to with the refrigerant oil it helps to track down leaks that push oil out of the system. Concentration level: The R134a vapor dilutes the oxygen concentration in the air to a low level, thereby causing harm. Your old hoses of course will not fit. In short, NO! Hopefully after you have read this entire page you will have enough information to determine which type of refrigerant is best for you. This chart has a column of ambient (outside) air temperatures on one side and a corresponding range of high side pressures on the other side. So if the TXV is OK, and the too much oil situation is not a big problem, then I wonder why the compressor is switching off after about 15 minutes of cooling? If the charge is low the compressor will cycle on/off in the max AC position. With new R12 no longer being manufactured, the market price soared to $100/pound. . It's actually a reaction with chlorine in the mineral oil that may have been absorbed and leftover from the old R-12. After the system has been tested out it should be checked for leaks. You can also check the Aux fan in your case. Can I use the one for the R-12? But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. The best oil that runs well with R134a is PAG oil or Polyalkylene Glycol. absorb by the evaporator to insure all liquid refrigerant entering the evaporator. Remove the old mineral oil from the compressor by turning it upside down, side to side, and turn the front hub on the clutch assembly. Carefully study the chart and compare the following: To a large extent, the choice is up to you. We chose to use 5-6 ounces of oil to be on the safe side: 3-4 ounces for the compressor, 1 oz of oil for the drier and another ounce of oil for system losses. how to get to disney springs from boardwalk / bb dakota plaid jacket canada / difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. Yes it will work with either Refrigerant! How dumb!I will jumper the aux fan and redo the test. Thanks so much Bohica - you've save me many more hours of fruitless speculation. and feeds it through an expansion valve. Its chemical symbol is CH2FCF3. Like say half a can or so recharge come springtime warm weather or something. However, R12 refrigerants are still used as fire retardants in aircraft and submarines. of coiled cap tube on VCR system with R134a. Make sure to get the R12 EXP valve if that is the way you go. There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. in /nfs/c05/h04/mnt/113983/domains/toragrafix.com/html/wp-content . R12 was once used in many air conditioning units as a refrigerant or cooling agent. There are significant differences between R12, R134a, and R513A, which must be considered when handling, processing, applying, or retrofitting with these refrigerants. I cleaned the evap as best I could, if that is what you are getting at. Recharge the compressor with a/c ester oil and a tracer dye. Most importantly, the oil used in the plant must always be compatible with the refrigerant used. Instead of using R12, its preferable to use R134a because it is very easy to find in the market, its sold at an affordable price, and is environmentally friendly. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." It's helluva humid and hot here in north florida, and I drive around all day for my job. I have one can left, so maybe a plan can be made. My turn to LOL - greasiesel! ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. Generally the system will be initially charged with approximately 80% to 85% of the original amount of R12, using R134a. sparkee said: Thanks for the Service Bulletin. maintain the A/C of older cars. From memory, I put in at least 8 ounces of oil, probably around 10 ounces in there. For instance you can evacuate FRIGC FR-12 into a refrigerant recovery bottle that has R134a in it or visa versa. The aux fan seems to be working fine - it switches on occassionally. Bohica, I appreciate your help with this. That is a good thing. The Main change in the system is the expansion valve. Electric fans do wear out. R12 is highly destructive to the earths ozone layer. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." A Lot of the fins are bent, especially at the top. The crossover point is approximately at 64F. The P H and T cond,sat of the HR12 at a T oa of 40 C were higher than that of the R134a, resulting in a higher P e than that for the R134a. If there is no pusher fan, and you have the room, put one in. So to keep things simple and to avoid controversy and politics we have R134a. If you find any of these conditions you will want to liquid flush (with dedicated AC flush solution) all the lines, condensers, evaporator (remove the expansion valve) before you proceed further. However, R134a is better than R12. Table 1 summarizes the technical characteristics of three potential R134a alternatives. Stopleak is also risky. 3) A TXV optimized for 134a will be ok with R12. We are an automotive mechanic blog that helps mechanics and car users to find the most recent and accurate technical and repair information for their cars. The larger line at the expansion valve is the suction line. R12 and R22 are both now banned by the EPA in the United States. The non-flammables can have R22 type gas which is not compatible with most rubber hoses or they have gases that contribute to global warming. First, differences in physical properties: 1, insoluble R12 compressor oil is used (to reduce the lubricant) 2, dissolved sealing materials are used (resulting in refrigerant leakage) 3, easy to damp (so easy to internal . Anyone know what happens when an R12 expansion valve is used in a system charged with R134A? The ratings for evaporator temperatures 40F, 20F, -10F, -40F in the capacity tables are in accordance with ANSI/ARI = R134a Charge Level R12 Expansion Valve = 201 830 06 84 R134A Expansion Valve = 201 830 04 84 Is there a difference after all? At 2000rpm, windows open, highest fan, hi pressure stabilized at 225 psi, low 25psi.Ambient 81F, vent 61F. Below are the major differences between R134a and R12: The chemical composition of R12 and R134a differ. Use strips of foam to couple the two heat exchangers if necessary.B. PaulJerky King -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. (On firewall where A/C lines go into cab.) You can spend long evenings reading about the differences between the two refrigerants. Jun 19, 2007. R134a systems operate at higher discharge-side pressures than R12, which can cause compressor seals to leak. With R134a you do not rely on the site glass. by | Jun 21, 2022 | what is the most accurate latin translator | burlington iowa arrests | Jun 21, 2022 | what is the most accurate latin translator | burlington iowa arrests The MB chart shows 360 psi with R12 in some conditions. I had a pair on my SAAB that seemed ok - but new ones ran 20% faster!Your best clue to airflow issues is a 60 mph test. On the other hand, R12 has a global warming potential of 10,910. In more serious, it could result in cardiac irregularities or death. R134a is NOT less efficient than R12 Actually R134a is more efficient. A York oil capacity is listed as "6.5 to 9.6 ounces". Thread starter goldNSX; Start date 1 August 2009; Tagged . In this study, without the need for major modifications to the bus air conditioner, the variation of the ejector dimensions according to different parameters has been investigated in the case of using the R1234yf, R1234ze(E), or R600a refrigerants, which may be a substitute for R134a as a refrigerant due to . Vent temperatures slowly go down to around 50F with hi speed driving. As noted, measure up front as best as you can to get as close to the aftermarket dim. If your compressor requires replacement or its seals and o-rings need to be replaced due to leakage, it would be wise at this time to either obtain a compressor that has o-rings and seals that are compatible with R134a or have your unit re-manufactured with compatible components. However, if it is taken close to a fire flame or any electrical heating element, it disintegrates into toxic products. Formula: (R12 Charge Specification x 0.9) - 0.25 lbs. When the ambient air temps get above 80F the gauge readings can run a bit higher on the high side and lower on the low side when using R134a. Should I do the test again with the the aux fan jumpered? AFAIK, there is no clutch on the engine fan on the 240D. I'll report back on the aux fan on performance next. 4.3 out of 5 stars 491. ambulance tailgate conversion The best replacement for R134a is R1234yf, while R12 refrigerant replacement was R134a. But R22 is almost equally damaging. I think so. Discussion in 'Technical' started by Jsarnold, May 25, 2012. It can be used applications like walk-in coolers, food and dairy display cases, domestic refrigerators, and beverage dispensers and vending machines. R1234yf is more environmentally friendly and has a global warming potential of 4. a 50f delta across the condensor is good, but I suspect that is an idle reading. This would become an expensive investment for a repair or service station to have unique dedicated equipment for every type of alternative refrigerant. Be sure to test @ 1500 to 2000 engine rpm, and record the ambient temp as well. Any suggestions, or do you need to know the hi/lo readings? Hence, let us continue to fix it. The expansion valve is designed so that the temperature of the refrigerant at the evaporator outlet must have 8 to 12F (4 to 7C) of superheat before more refrigerant is allowed to enter the evaporator. Fitting a PF condensor is not rocket science, but it requires some planning. What was the ambient when you took that reading?Jumpering the aux fan is a common thing here in the desert. R134a and R12 are both refrigerants used in vehicle air conditioning systems. Any ideas from the info above? Also, if you want to know what happens if you put R134a in an R12 system, you should first confirm if the R12 system can be replaced or if the refrigerants can be mixed. If the system was upgraded by a professional it should have an upgrade sticker. The cable is adjustable at the valve arm. That's a lot isn't it? I dont know why the cost difference between compressors is so huge, though. Back in that era, my business associates drove those things, brand new, and maybe I should take my Cadillac instead, no they wouldn't be caught dead in a Caddy, people of our esteem should be driving an MB. Replace the drier with a drier that has a desiccant that is R134a compatible, use new R134a o-rings. We ALWAYS want to know the pressure readings! The current expansion valve is FF - 1/4 - C. Is it neccesary to replace this valve? We, the Rxmechanic team, have presented a well-detailed comparison of R134a vs. R12. An extra half ounce? Are you sure you have an R4? At 40, it is 35psi, which is a difference of 8.9psi. and he synthesized R-134a in 1936, 5 years after R-12 was . Most of all the differences gravitate to longevity, functionality, and safety. I found that in the..Maxposition on the control it will have the compressor running all the time. Bad Car A/C Expansion Valve Symptoms. Also, they are mostly used in refrigeration and automotive air conditioning systems. Nick, I hear you - there maybe nothing to do here. So the steps involved are cleaning out the old oil, replacing all the O-rings, replacing the dryer, replacing the expansion valve, and converting the high and low side connectors from Schrader to quick connect valves. Edited: Sat July 14, 2007 at 10:22 PM by fonebone. I bought a relay to put on it connected to the compressor clutch. What is the refrigerant property involved that has caused this? The common problem when converting from R12 to R134a is lack of knowledge or equipment. 4 Stars & Up & Up; 3 Stars & Up & Up; 2 Stars & Up . The difference between R12 and r134a is the BTU carrying capability. A. Pressure/temperature plot of R134a vs. R12 is shown in figure 1. The larger fitting goes on the discharge port and the smaller fitting goes on the suction line or compressor inlet / suction port. Unfortunately, the oil only mixes with the refrigerant as a liquid. We say generally because the vehicle manufacturer may have a formula already worked out for the R134a conversion process. asia pacific stevie awards 2021. gin, amaretto cocktail. A. Pressure/temperature table for R12, R134a, and R513A is shown in Figure 1. . -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Hi pdrayton- If you can remember the oil capacity that you found in all your research and post that, then bohica and others can have a better idea if you have too much; see if you can find that info! hardly noticable. Then again, there are two different expansion valves. The sticker typically has a place to note the amount of refrigerant used, the type of oil and amount of oil, the technicians sign off or name and the date of the conversion. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve . Autor de l'entrada Per ; Data de l'entrada calexico west port of entry hours; 12 month libor rate 2021 a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve R134a. With the knowledge of the differences, youll be able to draw a comparison between R12 vs R134a efficiency. Instead, top off R12 with R134a refrigerant. Can I order a valve based on the original eaton number? Its chemical symbol is CH2FCF3. RULES for AOP - Owner Assistance and Contractors, Energy Efficiency and Building Performance Discussion NEW, Carnak Zone/Locked Areas - For Professional Member Only, How To Become a Pro and Rules For Pro Members, Pro Forum: Refrigerants and EPA regulations **NEW, Pro Forum: Residential Refrigeration and Appliances **NEW, Pro Forum: Equipment Recalls and Bulletins **NEW, Pro's Forum: Building Science Discussions, Educational Forums - Open for all in the industry, Welcome to HVAC-Talk's Educational Forums, How to Submit Links, Articles and Quiz Questions, Frequently Asked Questions About Submissions, Physics, Thermodynamics, Fluid Flow and Combustion, Educational, Training & Reference Information, Manufacturer's Technical Information Links, Electrical Theory, Circuits and Electronics, HVACR Equipment, Components & Accessories, Accessories Humidifiers, Air Cleaners, HRUs, Fans, Filters, etc. Most vehicles manufactured before 1993 have the R12 A/C system. The cure is to use the newer R134a compressors is sealing washers that are different thickness. Heres R12 vs. R134a pressure chart. What is a T/C?4. Is it exponential, squared? Usually, mechanics charge around $200 for conversion. In addition, R134a refrigerants are not only used in auto air conditioners, they can be used in freezers, aerosol cans, and refrigerators. Existing technology: R134a has been in use in the refrigeration industry for very many years, and theres so much information about the safe use of the product. The R134a compressor has a 1/8" step in on the high side port. 05-25-2017 02:14 AM. I could easily be over at least 2 - 3 ounces over on the oil. bokoen1 hoi4 the great purge / meryl and maks dancing with the stars / difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. How is the vent airflow?I would jumper the aux fan & check the performance. The problem with using an approved alternative refrigerants other than R134a is that when the system is serviced it requires certain types of fittings, labels and dedicated equipment. Can I use the one for the R-12? According to Wikipedia, There is such a thing as "r132a" (1,1-Dichloro-2,2-Difluoroethane), however there is no indication of it being a commercially produced refrigerant. You'll get marginally better performance out of the change as the expansion valve is matches the refrigerant characteristics. The condensor airflow drops off as the fan clutch dies slowly. This is not to say that one of these small retro-fit kits cant be used, however to be used wisely. I don't know where it is getting the switch off command, or why the vent temp drops steadily. Welcome to rxmechanic.com. After the optimum refrigerant charge is determined the car should be test driven to check for performance of the system. Some say that a chemical reaction can harm the A/C very badly as R134a reacts with mineral oil in some way. leading to corrosion of expansion valves, capillary tube plugging, and compressor bearing . Break out the new gauges and measure hi and lo at 1500rpm, and do the Merc FSM test to see how we're doing performance wise. With tube & fin condensors in MVAC applications there is never "too much" airflow. It won't be optimal, though. The name of the oil is Polyol Ester (POE). Hot coolant migrates up through the core by convection (is that the word? link to How to cut off a Catalytic Converter. At least you do not have 16 ounces in there ( yup seen it before).For now, straighten all of the fins that you can, clean the condensor well, and re-test with the aux fan running. El maig de 2016, un grup damics van crear un lloc web deOne Piece amb lobjectiu doferir la srie doblada en catal de forma gratuta i crear una comunitat que inclogus informaci, notcies i ms. The only mechanical differences between an R12 system and an R134a system are that R134a systems typically have larger condensers and more powerful compressors. Shorting the plug for the refrigerant switch should run the fan when the compressor is on. I have the original (R12) style expansion valve in the Maverick AC system. Swapping the components isnt a herculean task, but recharging the AC is a challenge. He used thermostatic expansion valve and Capillary tube for analysis with R12. Anyone know what happens when an R12 expansion valve is used in a system charged with R134A? It's not just the poor performance - the cooling just stops working after a while. All pre-97 XJs use systems with the same basic operating principle, although the parts do change a bit. Until 1995, most cars with air conditioning used R-12 Freon refrigerant which has shown to have an environmental impact. These two refrigerants are the older types and are not used in newer refrigeration and air conditioning systems. compressor, condenser, evaporator and expansion valve are specifically designed for use with R134a. With R-12, 30 is 28.4psi and 40 is 36.9psi, for a difference of 8.5psi. System has been working fine for a year. Before we mentioned that you can add approximately 5-6 ounces of ester oil to the compressor. What is needed? Its chemical symbol is CCl2F2. Paul:A 1983 240D should have a York compressor on an OEM system. For R12, its mineral oil. Replacement expansion valve for R134a or R12 A/C refrigerants, with O-ring connections. There are significant differences between R12, R134a, and R513A, which must be considered when handling, processing, applying, or retrofitting with these refrigerants.