* Leaving the company - oh, the all too easy escape: I have seen that mentioned in quite a few comments. The reason why they were 65's are:1. Senior-level Marketing Executive with experience in the consumer and B2B industry. Will <> reach Level 63 during their career? They can be wrong about exactly what these flaws are, but they aren't wrong that you are flawed. If you dont know what exactly an L63 is, how are you able to make promotion discussions in the review meetings?Managers become so defensive when asked what we should be doing to advance. A mentor helps tremendously. I have also always looked for those problems (opportunities). : those titles are organization specific. The only thing you learn is your bucket, and roughly where in the bucket you fit based on your numbers. And in your answer, there's a kicker follow-up: not only what you need to do to justify being promoted to L63, but to succeed in comparison to your L63 + L64 peers. There may be multiple reasons for pay differences - one of which is a small number of salaries submitted per job. Boeing, Go to company page IBM got their position by focusing on the customer. Ultimately humans make decisions either by heart or brain. I'm now past my time that I can recruit away from MSFT after leaving some time ago. Director can be applied to L65 or L66. There's this sort of nebulous "first you have to perform at level current+1 for a year, then you'll get promoted. My experience, I joined MSFT at 63 and in 3.5 years I am at 65. Everything else is irrelevent or works against your promotion. Get a free, personalized salary estimate based on today's job market. Director can be just principal in sales or marketing. I spend a lot of my time these days working with partner teams to help them solve their own problems or create wins for their teams even if it only peripherally touches my area. I'm a level 62 dev trying to get to 63. A Principal-level employee at Microsoft is someone who drives strategic efforts in their area of expertise. For others, the picture will not be so clear and they may place more weight on perceptions or a set of isolated incidents. Things get thrown your way and you knock each and everyone of the challenges out of the park. Yet, when you have 2 or 3 offers at the end of very hard interview loops, which one are you going to choose: the team that listens to HR or the team that listens to the market? Candidates with evidence of effective teaching will be given preference. There are so many reasons why things didn't happen in a given review cycle. Its usually comes down to do it and be unhappy or leave. Years ago we had a dev on my team who was very high IQ and very driven, but was driving his lead nuts. A mistake was a huge cost. 63's and 64's own a huge piece of getting the RIGHT work done CORRECTLY. And to your skip level. "a HR manager" is acceptable if HR is meant to convey a spoken "a human resources manager" rather than a spoken "an aich arr manager".haven't should have an apostrophe, yes. (Senior Project Manager), with 63 (Senior Project Manager) level earning average salary of $247k along with $38k worth of stock options. Be prepared for every possible question, scenario, disaster, etc. It's a question your boss gets asked so it's not a surprise to them. That is the guy to beat. I came in at 58 (9) and having been through a) I wish I had gone through b). Would they give you the level if you were not already a Microsoft employee? Great and timely post - thank you Mini! It took him at least two months to integrate. Jobs are leveled, not people - make sure the job you have includes the scope needed for the level you want. I know devs who got in at the wrong level and paying the price because they didnt negotiate their level correctly when they joined. Rather nice site you've got here. How do you get the right job/work that will make the impact. Keep my word. It takes a little time to get on your skip-level manager's radar. If you do not market yourself well, even if you are a superstar here at MSFT, your achievements might just go unrecognized (or they might be selectively recognized). If you want to advance and you are not a "favorite underling", your first and most important job is this: figure out how to become a "favorite underling". You might be too smart or have ideas that come from somewhere outside of Redmond which makes you very dangerous and not Microsoft material. if they'd only stop doing X and start doing Y on a sustained basis, I could see it Microsoft: Citi Cuts Ests, Target On PC Slowdown. I'm interested in reading your perspective and what advice you'd give to someone new to the company looking at a career path similar to your own. And the place where MS has the most non-contributing overheads is Redmond. HTH. One of my august colleges uses the analogy of a trapeze artist. Nothing you do is good, all you get is criticism. In fact, every boss I've had has told me that I was the most frustrating employee they've ever had, mostly because I ignore half the things they ask me to doAnyhow, here's my advice: do a good job.That's it. I've seen L65's who can't own a cardboard box, let alone a room.Well you know, don't go for them for advice! Difference between getting promoted to L65 and joining as new FTE at L65 is HUGE. I'm currently level 66 and started at level 59 (equivalent in old levels) 12 years ago. It's an excellent product. Why cannot we have our address title reflect our level as everybody else in the company?Not giving quite as snide a response as the previous posterAsk your management. Dina Dublon 1,2 Former Chief Financial Officer, JPMorgan Chase. And I'm going to tell you right now, I'm 99.9% sure what needs to change is you. Let's Hear it for the Boy! They know that if the team does well, they will do fine.5. Step outside of your comfort zone, own PM, own QA, become great at what you do, and do what you love - and the promo will come. Calibrations are like a brick wall, even in regard to comments made about you. This is a large part of his job - getting his reports to excel and getting them (and by extension, himself) some recognition.All of the above assumes you don't suck, though. MS is a carrot and stick culture with some heavy emphasis on stick. If you can make the argument about the job - and you're in a position of strength, obviously harder now than in years past, you can make the case. This is an opportunity to really do great work and innovate - learn to do your best work in the face of adversity and limited budgets and you will most likely to do well. L68 is partner, or you may see GM. If I was looking at reducing costs this isn't exactly where I'd set my sights first but again this is Microsoft we're talking about. Barring extraordindary circumstances each year you will get the "welcome to our group" evaluation.Don't forget the aunts and uncles. sheesh, "We definitely need a new thread, things are starting to happen indeed. ;) I have one thing to add that might help some. You may not need them to get from 59->60, but if you're good at them, it'll make your rise much quicker. My promotion to 63 came not when I helped my group out of one of their many nightmares but when I helped an uncle. Wow. Kathleen Hogan. RIF in the SQL team? I heard that promotion budgets are significantly reduced at below 65 level. Be the Rosh Gadol Microsoftie. As for my own history, successful strategies have followed 3 major buckets:From 59 --> 62 (I started as a 10 in the old system) I simply kicked ass and took no prisoners. Should I trust my manager or is this just one more of his demonstrations of poor management skills? then you're really off in the weeds.Think of the guy in the other company, the guy who is building something that competes with you, with your team. How? No, L7 is 66-67. SQL is one of the groups that has consistently delivered quality and growth. Feel free to . If youre not doing a great job at your current level youre not even going to be considered for the next level. You havent seen nothing yet. This is something that should happen on an ongoing basis.Unfortunately, it doesnt happen, and that is what frustrates a lot of people.Saying that you dont know what exactly an L63 is, but will know one when you see him is a big cop-out. Also, there's 2 ladder, management ladder and seniority ladder. I only wish the internal MyMicrosoft blog had posts that were this valuable and insightful. I'd like to hear some more experiences from MCS. Don't do this point blank and for no apparent reason, but your manager has to be aware that at all times you're working towards your next promo, be aware of your results, be aware of the things you need to do to get there, and make YOU and HIS MANAGER aware of those things. The skills are different, and part of the failure of this company is exactly due to losing star individual contributors that become mediocre leads, in all disciplines. Because, IMO, that is the jist of jcr's post. more often than not it is up to the employee to use the resources, show maturity and commonsense and move up62 -> 63 is difficult and there is a reason behind it. Can any reader in Corp Sales Excellence(SMS&P) privide guidance on how to grow from 63 to 64 in that group. I've been at 59 for going on four years now, and was told by my manager over 2 years ago that I was totally ready and qualified for promotion to L60, but that "there wasn't enough budget" (yeah right), and this was in *Office* (a group which is clearly strapped for cash, I guess). Second, the perspective of a different team helps you generalize about best practices and what works and doesn't work. Will there be room on your team? Like any organization MS has its own unique culture and cannot possibly be all things for all people. If you reach L63 during your time at Microsoft, especially if you started at L60 or below, you should celebrate. I'm interested in reading your perspective and what advice you'd give to someone new to the company looking at a career path similar to your own. They literally lived in GM's office for half a year to get the promo from L64 to L65.3. Once they successfully cross the chasm theyll start over on the typical S-shaped learning curve at the new level again. Think Locally: remember three years back when we talked about the book Corporate Confidential? However L64 takes some time and L65 is very difficult. Of course not. Why cannot we have our address title reflect our level as everybody else in the company?Maybe because you are so overleveled (maybe not you personally, but MSN as whole), your bosses doesn't want rest of the company to make ruckus about that injustice (I have seen people moving from SDE II in Windows to MSN and getting promotion-on-transfer to SENIOR SDE, and they were not even hard-core devs). Highly effective Finance leadership; ability to deliver results by leading through example while setting high personal standards; Partnering with the business and influencing . That is the guy to beat. for people, who might claim that they do all this and still cant progress.. dude, either you are in wrong group or you have not introspected / taken feedback well or you are missing the whole thing by a mile. We all know how many architects there are but isn't Senior the same thing nowadays ? My manager told me a while ago that I was about to get one. You have to strive to get the KEY to the boss's heart and brain. And I'm going to tell you right now, I'm 99.9% sure what needs to change is you. This way I can be in a better position to show that I am a "absolutely!" Absolutely not Definitely yes 3 1 David Lean Worked at Microsoft (company) (1990-2009) Upvoted by Jack Schofield , Computer journalist who has covered Microsoft for 35 years. My queries on any specific guidance would get no response or the response that youre a 62 and you should be able to figure it out. Its nice to see constructive advice and stories from everyone.I'm in the 61 bucket and currently struggling with my team for many months. You almost always have to earn it. The people around you can help with that. Here's how to find it. It inspired me to write the following dissertation on the subject in hopes that it will be helpful. If you think you will follow the management career path then get in such role as early as possible. But in an organization this large, how do you avoid title inflation ? SoI'll repeat it again. Being irreplaceble is bad because you spend more times on coding/fixing bugs and there is less time to work on your visibility. great post. Most organizations will do promo/slate through a consensus/stack rank process. Exceptional Director, hardworking, reliable, efficient, a team player, flexible to work 24 hours shift rota, prioritise my workload at all time, managing customers and team, managing safely, ability to carry out Risk Assessments and how to manage such Risks to minimal, excellent report written skills, excellent communicate skills both verbal and written forms including presentation using . and is willing to take a chance on someone whose interview indicates they are ready for next level. Show me you can do this and want to learn more and you'll be on my radar as a possibility.6. Stop thinking of your Mgr as your adversary and listen to what they are telling you. You forgot "never ask for a promotion".Forgive my cluelessness, but: Why not?MSS. Also known as executive-level, senior-level seniority requires a high level of experience, knowledge and responsibility within a company. Can we talk about the recent hiring of a new OSG head, as well as ideas on how to fix online? The "Most Likely Range" represents values that exist within the 25th and 75th percentile of all pay data available for this role. And a knife-fight for L65 (some other day). L66 is Principal band. It turns out that typically your immediate manager has little control, it's all decided at higher levels. Now read over your answer. L6 =64-65. How do you ensure there is no conflict of interest. the higher you go, the bigger deal this is - at least to where i have gotten.Finally, not everybody will be good in every role. You dont have the same experience or abilities to perform in a core STB senior level role. +1 on the level balancing difference in subs.As someone who has transferred employees to/from corp/sub both directions and has promoted a bunch of folk, the corp level for a role is 2 numbers higher than the equivalent sub one. He said this year he could only make strategic promotions, which sounded like promotions of people above 65. Microsoft's senior positions start at level 63, according to the crowdsourced tech compensation website Levels.fyi. did this post dieNo, the Mini-Electronic Brain did. However, I think this is the first point where we see a non-trivial number of folks plateau. Skip-levels will not tolerate people who are not team players.Finally if your manager is new or at your level, the strategy is the same. They are trying to get attention from upper levels more harder then you. So once again, a big part of your job is learning how to become a ninja at firguring out what your management wants from you -- even when they haven't articulated it in any kind of measurable way -- and then doing it. As someone who left MS @ L63 - and supposedly tracking strongly to L64 - and who has seen a lot of questionable promos occur, I think it's fair to say that the rise to "Senior" follows a slighly skewed distribution curve in that in the largest bucket case, you can probably see that L63 was warranted.However, on either end of the distribution, by which I mean people who easily obtained it and people who seriously struggled to obtain it, there are some disturbing anomalies that are difficult to explain away.You might say, "I can live with the corner cases" and I would agree that optimizing for those isn't worthwhile.BUT! Get FREE domain for 1st year and build your brand new site. These turtles gets promoted eventually just based on time spent at MS and because they werent doing anything wrong even though they dont really meet CSP criteria. Despite the fact you may be totally right, you can inadvertently be viewed as a negative person.Although your bosses are probably aware of the problems, they might be overwhelmed by the scope of the situation, and start getting annoyed at you for being the person always reminding them about the flaws. Aren't those the things you are best at? Founded in 1969 by Dr. Bish Agrawal, ABC Consultants is the pioneer of organized recruitment services in India. I might be still employed by Microsoft if I knew he wasnt doing it willingly.One thing I would do different if I could do it again is to not advance levels any faster than I have to. A great internal tool to help you sync your self perception with those around you is available internally at http://hrweb/US/CareerDev/folder/ms360process.htm. Good luck with that. The Making of an Expert: in the great Harvard Biz Review article of this title the author debunks the myth that experts are born, rather than made. The good thing in most teams here is that if you persist, you will get there. Its a natural consequence of the learning curve. You can each help each other.I've gone from 59 to 65 so far, but maybe what worked for me won't work for you. I myself am a L62 on the cusp of a midyear promo after 18 months. also work is good only when it leads to results that typically means team's success. I haven't talked to anyone internally that has anything good to say about it. You are now 20% closer to promotion just by a day of work :). Any idea on when is this going to change? the answer is simple - take on more. Often this is where a perceived negative attitude or lack of soft skills will hurt you the most.Your immediate boss can often look beyond that to the benefit you bring to the organization - mostly because it also directly benefits him or her. SAP, Go to company page Had I only known this info when I started at Microsoft. From my perspective (L67) here's what you need to nail:1. Joined MCS at level 60 and was immediately told that L61 would be years away. For instance, software development engineers generally come in at Level 59,. >Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. I haven't seen one single person getting hired below L63 in my group during last year. Is it easier to level up in smaller groups (v1 product)? This makes it very easy to feel underleveled, because the 6 people that started 3 weeks before you might take up the 2 promotion spots available per year for 3 years (numbers all made up).You also, at least in my experience, aren't really given feedback on when you're performing at a level that *could* be promoted. It's a knife fight to 63. Understand not just what needs to happen, but WHY. you want to complete A and A requires 10 devs. I also agree with the promotion-on-transfer point. I also don't know if this is the first step towards a lay-off, but for now, it seems we'll have jobs for a few more months.Ugh, not good, not good at all>I am a partner. They make decisions that affect both their department and the company, making their role crucial in the pursuit of the company's goals. I suggest understanding why it is "No" first, truthfully accepting the point-of-view as pissed off as it may make you, and then having a self-directed action-plan to get on track. . The larger the team I work on the more I am bombarded with meetings and brown bags so someone can attempt to become the expert on design patterns, code coverage, or feature X. below 63 one has low influence and above 64, it is more strategizing and less execution.Overall, my experience has been that promotion is the effect of results and good work. Biggest key for me was knowing when to leave a bad management situation and team. Technical excellence alone will not generate success.Authority. For many in our sub, MCS seems to be the place of incompetent managers and just a pitstop to somewhere else. Now a VP at a small cap (and growing, yes in this economy) company. For example, some are principal individual contributors that just stayed for too long in a group and became essential, but now want to move on and cannot do that, either because their skills are obsolete or because they simply cannot go to a new startup team at such high level without any management responsibility, and they are untested managers. The job level for Technical Fellow starts at 80 and goes beyond. Candidates should have a Ph.D. in Physics and a strong commitment to undergraduate education. It works like this: Senior (L64,63) - works on tactical efforts, writes code or works on projects autonomously, collaborates with others In my co-workers case, they overloaded him with work and then documented anything that fell through the cracks until they had enough to get rid of him.I'm sure HR throttles managers when this is going on. This will only lead us to a healthy and balanced distribution of levels across genders. My best guess is that you think it should be await. Similarly, the best predictor of your success at the next level is your success at the current level! So I guess I know what it takes go get to level 63. I wasn't sure I was going to get out of a couple of those situations but after everyone of them, I was stronger and smarter.Take the challenge and go after tough problems. I've lucked out a bit by working on a key project for our group and division, although a lot of that was due to my own contributions.